If you haven’t read part 1, start there instead.

An Interview with Epic

It was about a week later that I spotted a job in a Madison, Wisconsin newspaper from a company: EPIC SYSTEMS CORPORATION.

The advertisement was very Epic like and left out a lot of details, but they were searching for software developers. Given this was the pre-Internet-answers-all-your-questions days, I couldn’t find anything meaningful about them at my local library (yes, I tried!). But, it was a software development job so I sent my resume in. The job advertisement wasn’t so bad that the opportunity sounded terrible in any way, it just lacked detail.

I got a call about a week later from an Epic employee and went through some basic phone-screening type questions (I honestly don’t remember who phone screened me which I feel bad about!). That phone screen proceeded into an in-person interview (I think there was a follow-up call for this). I was told that my interview afternoon would be a mix of in-person and some test taking. Nervous, but job-needy, I agreed on a time and date.

Anyone who’s worked at Epic or who has applied to Epic knows the drill. While the specifics have changed over the years, the core hasn’t. You’re paraded around, meet some people who mostly just talk about their day and what they do, you’re asked some questions (full well knowing that you’ve only been to college, so the questions aren’t very deep), and then you TAKE A TEST (or two or three).

As I mentioned, the specific tests have of course changed many times but the spirit hasn’t. Back then, the first test was basically a programming language comprehension test for what seemed like it must be a made up programming language; this programming language had some peculiar traits and definitely wasn’t familiar.

It wasn’t till I was hired and started learning the programming language MUMPS (also known as M, AKA Caché Object Script, etc.) that it was clear that one of the tests covered a “must be a made-up programming language” was in fact heavily inspired by MUMPS (and a spiritual predecessor MIIS that Epic had used). The second test was more traditional, presenting a series of questions that needed to be hand-coded in a programming language of my choice. I know I chose C as it was something I was familiar with at the time. The other programming languages I knew at the time would have hardly impressed the Epic test-graders.

One often-forgotten aspect regarding the Epic programming tests is that there’s a mix of speed and accuracy that plays into the final evaluation. Fast and highly accurate is most desirable of course. They don’t tell you this and even if you know it, how it affects your behavior may not change. Being fast with poor code isn’t a great way to land a job generally speaking.

I know that I spent an extraordinary amount of time reviewing my code since I was told I had something like 3 hours to complete the work. I’m sure on pass number three through my code that it wasn’t time well spent. But, I didn’t know that I was being measured on time as well. In hindsight, I should have considered it and only made one or two passes.

A week later, a second call! I’d done OK on the tests. They’d like me to come back in and do another round of interviews with some team leaders and managers. I was excited. As my schedule was wide open, I scheduled it for as soon as they could make it work.

Upon arriving at the then HQ of Epic on Medical Circle Drive in Madison, I was told that it was customary to do an interview with the founder of Epic, but she was traveling on a sales trip that day. I can’t say that I was disappointed by that as the very idea had made me nervous.

I met with 5 team leaders from around Epic on that second interview day. They only had about 8 at the time, so I met most of them that were in R&D. Everyone was pleasant and didn’t ask any tough questions.

Except for one.

She’d gotten her playbook straight from the interviewing books I think. (You’ll find out more about her later and why this became funnier over the years).

“Why do you want this job?”

I’m usually open and direct with others. I suppose I could have come up with a line of crap. But, that’s not me. I’d rather be honest. I took a risk.

Be Thoughtfully Honest

I just want a job.

Aaron, July 1993

That was honest. My internal warning systems flashed for a moment, but dimmed. But, it was the truth. Through all the interviews and testing, I really didn’t have a good picture of what I’d be doing at Epic if I got the job and it wasn’t clear what software they needed help with. All these years later and I still remember sitting there in the small Rosewood conference room saying that.

Epic commonly places employees on teams after interviewing successfully unless a specific request for a team or work is approved. I’m not faulting them for not telling me, but the actual things that they were doing didn’t make much sense to me as I’d had zero experience with “healthcare software.” I couldn’t get excited about a particular application or piece of functionality.

“My gosh, insurance billing software challenges sounds like keen fun.”

That’s just not something you’d hear me say without a giggle. (While there are definitely some technical and algorithmic challenges dealing with mass amounts of data in a timely fashion—billing software is just not my normal cup of tea).

Now, I’m generally “fast on my feet” and added something jokingly about how my parents wanted me to start working soon anyplace, and yadda yadda. I did think to add “I don’t care as long as it’s a programming job–that’s what I’m interested in.”

She wrote down my response. I could tell that she wasn’t prepared for my honesty by her reaction. My final interview was with the TL of the Resolute billing team. The interview was fine, but again, she failed to convey what the team needed and was doing to this recent college graduate. (Again, I don’t fault any of them for failing to do this well, the products are complex and difficult to discuss with an outsider in 30 minutes and have time for back and forth questions). Remember, these were green-screen style terminal applications that Epic was selling at the time, so showing working software wasn’t particularly compelling either.

Sometimes Dumb Timing Happens

Shortly after my second interview with Epic, I received a phone call from State Farm Insurance, at the time headquartered in Bloomington, Illinois. Having attended my university in that same city, I knew where their corporate campus was and the influence they had on the local community. They had a lot of employees — doing whatever insurance companies do (heck, I know generally, but I don’t know why they have so many employees).

I’ll talk more about this in my next post.

Question

If you took an Epic programming test, what programming language did you use? Was it hand-written or online? Did you ever learn your score?

Finding Employment

The summer after I graduated from my university I was struggling to find jobs that would fit my set of skills:

• University degree: Bachelor of Arts in Natural Science (there’s a non-Epic story there!)
• Limited summer employment experience: A database admin/internal tool development at a local truss and home building manufacturer which is no longer in business (shout out to dBase for being a wonderfully OK thing at the time)
• National Science Foundation paid summer program with room, board, and and access to an extremely expensive true parallel processor (admittedly, my 3 year old iPhone is far more amazing tech — but the parallel processor was quite revolutionary at the time)
• A lot of side hacking in my ample free time

Admittedly, that wasn’t much. While I would have liked to add: “unlimited potential,” that didn’t seem to be appropriate to include.

Discovering job opportunities before the Internet had taken off was an extraordinary experience. The great explorers Indiana Jones and Lara Croft had it easy in comparison finding previously lost and hidden treasures.

The Official Search™ process consisted of buying local newspapers and checking want-ads. My parents received a daily local newspaper and we’d buy one or two Sunday giant editions to get broader coverage every week. Occasionally, I’d get my hands on the giant newspaper that was Chicago Tribune back in the 1990s. Forests shook at the amount of paper used in each edition.

There wasn’t much to find. Back in the early 1990s there weren’t many software development or software engineering roles. There wasn’t a spicy-hot SaaS startup on every street corner like today. Recruiters weren’t banging on my door begging me to interview. It was surprising if the day’s want-ads had a single relevant job that matched my extensive credentials and the types of jobs I was vaguely interested in.

Weeks passed since graduation. I sincerely wanted to get a job. I bought my first 10-speed bicycle and helmet, but that wasn’t a marketable talent. My parents were starting to hint that maybe a temporary job at a local business would be great in the interim. It was never very serious though as there weren’t any local — the drive back and forth and gas costs and insurance cost increases would have nearly meant that I’d volunteered my time essentially. So, I kept looking. (My parents had done the math too, they knew it wasn’t really an option, but it was a game we were playing to get me out of the house.)

I did send in my resume to any reasonable match (I likely included a chillingly generic cover letter as well but have long since blocked that out of my memories). The experience of a job hunt hasn’t changed much. Often nothing. No calls, not a rejection letter.

However I did hear back from a software company called Parsons Software in Cedar Rapids, Iowa that isn’t in business anymore AFAIK (OK, an update, turns out the then owner of the company later went on to found GoDaddy). After a few phone screens, I was invited to an in-person interview. I’d never driven to the city or that part of Iowa. For those including myself who are dependent on GPS today: all I had was an old-school Rand McNally map and some handwritten instructions for the last part of the drive.

I hadn’t by any means oversold my expertise in the phone conversations. I said what I’d done in school and what I’d done outside of school.

To my shock however, during the interview, they made it clear that there was another person interviewing for the position that had better experience and credentials. Spectacular. Why tell me that? It was like a warning shot. A pointless clarification. I expected that other candidates had applied for the job and that they were interviewing others. But telling me I wasn’t at the top of the list was demoralizing and pointless. Thanks for wasting my time and yours.

Taunting is Terrible

I expect that the culture of this company (that no longer exists I’m sure in no part to their brilliant hiring techniques) wasn’t actually a friendly place. Taunting a candidate with: “you’re not as good as the other candidate” is awful and disrespectful. It helped me understand the culture of the company far better than nearly anything else that happened that day.

The remainder of the interviews weren’t, as far as I recall, particularly interesting. We went out for lunch (which was awkward for uncomfortable reasons I won’t share here) and I remember distinctly trying to find the least messy and least likely foods on the menu that might get stuck in a front tooth. As a future interviewer that did lunches with candidates routinely, I know how these meals aren’t the best for many candidate personalities.

I’m surprised they didn’t make me pick my second choice for food at lunch.

I remember taking my senior project with me on a floppy disk and the code to show them as a demonstration of skills. It was a DOS-based app with “windows” that could pop up, be moved, and a basic data entry app. It was an impressive app and went way beyond what other students had done for the same assignment. I know the professor at the time didn’t even fully grasp how I’d built the app. Shrug. That was and still is how I operate.

Good news! I apparently matched their lowered expectations adequately. I received no job offer. I didn’t want to work there, but I had no other options, so I was a bit disappointed that I couldn’t turn the offer down. While I was anything but “business-savvy” at the time, I was keenly aware that the software they were building was very niche and unlikely to have many customers knocking down their doors for new versions.

It was about a week later that I spotted a job in a Madison, Wisconsin newspaper from a company: EPIC SYSTEMS CORPORATION.

Questions

What was your worst interviewer experience?

No More Epic: February 5, 2021

Three years ago, I walked the halls of Epic as an employee one last time. I’d spent 25 years plus a few days at Epic. During the days of a COVID-19 mandated work-from-home policy there were no in-person farewells on my last day.

There were no interviews with HR. Not even a largely ceremonial turning-in of my keycard. I’d been at Epic on weekends and this felt quieter. There were a few staff on campus, but those that were there had their doors closed as they were “sheltered in place.” Normally busy occupancy sensors had no employees to keep a watchful eye over. The hallways were dark.

I’ll spend a few posts talking about my reason for departure later.

But this is also the beginning of something new that I’ve been cooking for too long. It’s my story at Epic and life lessons I learned along the way. You can read about the basics here if you want to get a bit more background.

(Oh, and I haven’t been back to the Epic campus for any other reason since my last day.)

Goodbye Epic. Hello next adventures and I’m glad you’re you’re here for the journey!

Your Journey

If you worked at Epic and left on your own to find a new adventure at a new job, why did you leave? Did your change match your expectations?

Or are you thinking about leaving? What is it you’re looking to change?